Episode 130: Transcript
Failing Forward: Learning to Lead & Coach Your Team
Speaker 0 00:00:04 Make It Right – The manufacturing podcast,
Speaker 1 00:00:10 Manufacturing, you have the process and you have the people and oftentimes one loses out to the other, going for the process result without a thought to the impact on your people will cost you eventually as well, going for the people result without an eye on the bottom line. So how do you lead? So you can find an achieve that perfect balance every day. This week on Make It Right. Our guest is leadership. Our guest’s rather leadership definition brings people and process together. She says that leadership is to serve and develop people through human interactions and relationships towards the achievement of goals that support the purpose. And to that end, she provides lean leadership, training, integration, and consulting for ops management teams across a variety of industries. Her company is called process plus results. We’re really pleased to have Jamie V Parker on make it right. Jamie, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 00:01:05 Thank you, Janet and Kevin. Very excited to be here with you this morning.
Speaker 1 00:01:09 Yeah. I wanted to introduce you to my colleague, Kevin, he’s a manufacturing leadership consultant, so hi, Kevin. Good to see you again and meet Jamie. Always great to be on here and lovely to have Jamie on here too. Great. So let’s, let’s talk a little bit Jamie, about your career background, because, um, sounds to me, you did a bit of a pivot in your leadership, uh, approach sometime ago in your career. So let’s talk about your overview of your career and how you made that switch.
Speaker 2 00:01:39 Yeah, absolutely. So, so I am a recovering command and control manager and, you know, I grew up in operations management, um, kind of going up the ranks of an organization, kind of in that authoritarian style, uh, and then continued to lead lead operations. When I got to be a regional operations manager, I had all of the P and L responsibilities that normally come with that operations management role, but I also had responsibility for leadership development and for some new ways of thinking at working that we were, we worked kind of just getting into around lean, continuous improvement. So I had responsibility for continuous improvement and leadership development for the division. And it was really that, that kind of lean part of things that started to shift that for me.
Speaker 1 00:02:28 Okay. So when you say you’re a covering command and control leader, um, you know, what really like was there not an incident where you just went, this really is not working. I need to make a change.
Speaker 2 00:02:43 Well, you know, there were lots of incense. It was, it was pretty rough when I say command and control. I mean, it was rough. It was, uh, you know, like anonymous alert lines and complaints. And I mean, it was not a good situation because I was driving, you know, I was driving for results, right. That’s how you get promoted is you deliver results, deliver results, hit your numbers, hit your numbers now. And I didn’t know how to do that other than to push my team and push and push and push. And so it was miserable. Um, they were miserable. I was miserable. And, um, I was at this point where I was like, you know, what if I don’t find something different, um, before my lease was up, I was living in DC and I said, my lease is up in, I don’t know, April or may, if I don’t find something different by then I’m moving back home and hitting the reset button.
Speaker 2 00:03:32 And, um, I actually did find something different. I found it, it was, you know, with the same company, but it was a different role, um, that March and, and actually moved into a different role. So I didn’t move back in with the folks, but, um, that’s where I was. But even so even then though, where I knew, like I knew this wasn’t good, I still didn’t blame myself yet. Right. Like it was still their fault and it was going to be fixed because I wasn’t leading them anymore. Right. They weren’t my team, I got, I got past them and now I have this new team and the new team is what’s going to change. Um, so that’s really where I was, you know, if I’m, if I’m just fully transparent and honest with myself about, about it. Uh, and it really wasn’t until I started practicing lean, continuous improvement and realizing there’s this other pillar, in addition to continuous improvement, there’s a respect for people side that that’s really about this, um, you know, kind of greater idea of what are the gifts that people bring to the table and that everyone has those gifts.
Speaker 2 00:04:33 And how do we, um, create value kind of this respect for humanity piece. It’s just this much bigger thing. And that was really where I started to make that shift for myself.
Speaker 1 00:04:42 So when you did that, did you see instant change or were people kind of skeptical going, what’s she doing here because this just isn’t Jamie?
Speaker 2 00:04:53 Oh yeah. I mean, it definitely was not instant. Um, not for, you know, even for everybody do they trust me, but even for myself, so I didn’t just flip a switch and say, Oh, I’m putting all of that to the, to the side. And now I’m this new person. Uh, it was definitely a process. And I, I say that I’m a recovering command and control manager, not recovered cause I’m, I’m still in that process. And I have to be really intentional about how I show up, because if I don’t, then those natural tendencies will come back in. They’ll slip back in, especially when the stakes are high, especially when man we’ve got this big customer project or this big customer failure happened, or, you know, Hey, we just had a pandemic and everything’s crazy. I might slip into those old natural tendencies, if not, I’m not really purposeful in how I show up.
Speaker 1 00:05:45 Okay. So I want to bring in this idea of, and we’ve talked about this on the podcast, many times, Kevin and I with other guests about this need for when something like that happens, you got to be the hero, you got a comment in and, and fix everything because you’re the leader and that’s what people expect or that’s what you think people expect. How do you see that, that hero leadership and, and how do you control that?
Speaker 2 00:06:12 Yeah. You know, um, if it’s okay, I’d like to tell a story about a manager I worked with and then maybe share what kind of we learned from that. If that, if that works. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So Brian, Brian was, um, an operations manager, kind of a department department manager. And, um, you know, he said, Hey, Jamie, I hear about all this, you know, systematic problem solving proactive, let’s improve processes, but I don’t have time for that. Like I am putting out fires all day. People are coming to me. Like I don’t have time. I barely, I’m barely keeping up. Right. I’m treading water with, with my day job. And so I, you know, so I went into to help Brian and started looking at what’s what’s happening. And I was watching and a team member would come up and say, Oh, you know what?
Speaker 2 00:06:59 We have this, this customer problem. What should we do? He said, Oh, let me call the customer. And a team member would come up and say, man, this machine’s not working. He say, yeah, well tell the tele service provider this. And he was giving the answer and giving the answer and giving the answer. And what was happening is, as he did that more, he was really training people that you go to Brian, right? When something happens, you go to Brian and I, you know, challenged him, said, Hey, I want us to really give more authority decision-making authority and problem solving capability. Let’s build the problem solving capability to your team. And he was really hesitant he’s his background was in the military and he said, well, but then won’t I be a bad boss? So, you know, my job, he said, I see my job as a leader is to remove obstacles, to remove the burden.
Speaker 2 00:07:45 Like they’ve got plenty on their plate. Why would I also add this onto their plate? And so he was a little skeptical and I said, Hey, can you, can you just have enough curiosity to try it with me? And so we were working on with him and with his team, uh, to develop his ability to step back and their abilities to make decisions and problem solve. And I was checking in with him about a year after we started that process and just wanted to hear how things were going and if he could share that experience. And he said that he learned three things. He said, first, he learned that, uh, his team usually has better ideas than he does because they’re in the work. They’re doing it every day. They know all the things he said second, when the team was coming up with the countermeasures and the better ways of working that compliance was better because what would happen in the past is they would have failures, let’s say packaging, this product, and it’s getting damaged in shipment.
Speaker 2 00:08:41 And so he would test and he would come up with a new process and he would go roll it out, right in air quotes, roll it out to the team. And then he’d have to follow up, follow up, follow up to manage the compliance. But when the team doing the testing and the team was coming up with a better packaging standard, and the team was sharing that with each other, that they like, they just executed it better. So he didn’t have to do as much as this, these compliance checks. And he said, the third thing he learned is he was doing, when he was doing his one-on-ones that month, he went, the question he asked everybody was, what’s your favorite part of your job? And he said, almost every single team member answered with something about problem solving, being creative, coming up with better ways to do things.
Speaker 2 00:09:26 And it was in that moment, what he realized is he said, I fought that I was being the good boss because I was taking all of those problems and all of those challenges and all of those fires off of their plate, I thought I was removing the burden. And he said, what I learned is I was actually removing the joy. I was taking away the favorite, favorite parts of their jobs. And so those, yeah. Right. So like what, uh, I mean, some lessons learned. Um, and I just think that’s such a great story to kind of emphasize and illustrate the difference of, you know, this, this approach of, Hey, do I remove, am I just removing obstacles, obstacles, obstacles, or am I helping to serve and develop people and help them become thinkers, help them get, give them an opportunity where they can contribute something bigger. And Kevin, do you have a comment?
Speaker 3 00:10:18 Yeah, I do. Um, I love the transparency, Jamie and I love the fact that you said, well, even though you, you kind of know it now you keep, you have to keep yourself in check as well. And I mean, the idea that this is a practice, right, this is not perfection. And so what we’re doing is we’re practicing every day and we’re practicing the things that we believe are working better for us without slipping back to the other things. And, um, where I think one of the challenges that I’ve seen is where you said the boss feels like he needs to remove the obstacles. I often talk about one of the key roles of bosses is helping and supporting the team. And in some ways it is removing the obstacles, but that’s removing the obstacles that the individuals themselves don’t have the capability or the scope to be able to remove. And that’s very difficult. They’re very different, right. So what you’re explaining, which is they do have the scope and the capability, it’s just that they’re not being given the opportunity to solve those things. And I love the way you got the distinction between them. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:11:22 Absolutely. And that’s something we look at is where is this problem occurring? Um, is it like, is it encouraged in the work processes that are happening in your operation or is it occurring? You know, maybe something with procurement that is outside of the scope of your team or, you know, right. So there, so we want to solve problems or make decisions at the right place. And the challenge is, uh, particularly for operations managers that I’m working with is, you know, a lot of times they’re promoted because they are good problem solvers, figure it out or is right. You know, that they can work through that. So they get promoted. Um, but then they also, um, with a lot of them who are doing some sort of lean training on systematic problem solving. So, you know, whether it’s like PDCA plan do study adjust, or, you know, through six Sigma, they’re doing something where they, they’ve got some sort of process, you know, that they’re working through.
Speaker 2 00:12:16 And so they’ve actually developed some pretty good skills to, uh, define the problem and, you know, do some root cause analysis and tests and countermeasures. And now their brain, their brain has kind of developed some of that skill and it almost becomes natural for them to step in and start using those skills. And so I, you know, I actually teach three things that you want to do, um, in order to shift from, um, the doing problem solving to the coaching problem solving. So when it’s, when it’s something it’s an obstacle that you need to remove, because you know, it’s not within the scope of what your team can do or where they have that capability or that, um, you know, authority, whatever that might be, then you’re the doer. So jump in and do when it is in the scope of your team. Now you want to say, okay, what is my intention here?
Speaker 2 00:13:08 So step one is to set intention, am I, am I coming into this to be the doer and the problem solver? Or am I coming into it to be the coach? Because there’s really two very different things when you’re doing your goal is to solve the problem. When you’re coaching, that’s no longer the goal. Oh my goodness. The goal is no longer to solve the problem. That’s the team member’s goal, but it’s not your goal. Your goal is to develop the capabilities of that team member to help them develop their thinking processes. And so you want to set your intention to decide in this situation, what role do I want to play? So that’s step one, step two is to stop giving the answers. And it is so much harder than it sounds because usually we’re not saying, Oh, pause, let me give you the answer.
Speaker 2 00:13:57 The answer is this right. Usually what we’re doing is we’re saying things like, well, have you thought about trying this? And we’re like, Oh, look, see I’m coaching. And you know what the other person said is, Oh, I guess I need to go do that now. Right. They’re not learning. They’re not developing. So we’ve got figure, how do we stop giving the answers? And then the third part is we don’t just stop giving the answers and be quiet. We actually replace that by asking good coaching questions and good coaching questions are very different than problem solving questions because it’s not all of the diagnostic questions. Let me figure it out. Right. It’s now it’s about, um, how do I help that, that learner to think through the process of defining the problem? Um, and so, you know, I, I like to kind of say, you know, think about it from the standpoint of, so when the doctor asks you, how long have you had these symptoms?
Speaker 2 00:14:52 You know, like, okay, that’s a great question for the doctor to ask, well, why? Because the doctor’s trying to diagnose and solve your problem, right? Write you prescription, give you the lifestyle change. They’re trying to do it for you. So when we come in, we start asking diagnostic diagnostic diagnostic. That’s great when we want to be the doctor, but not when we want to be the coach. So then I guess the question is, you know, you just simply ask the operator, whoever has the issue. What do you think? Yes, yes. I love, I actually really teach, you know, Hey, try to start with the word, what we love to start with the word. Why, especially if you have any continuous improvement or lean training, you’ve probably heard a five. Why analysis? Right. Why, why, why, why is the cell phone bill twice as much as it usually is, you know, that’s great when I’m asking myself, but when I walk into my teenagers room and say, why is the cell phone bill twice as much as it usually is? That’s not what they hear. Right. So when we asked, start with the word, what instead of saying, you know, have you, have you thought about trying this? We say, well, what have you thought about try, what else have you thought about, what do you think is causing this? What do you think we should do? What do you think the best next step is? What do you think the implications are? If you do that, what do you expect to happen? Right. Very different questions. What’s the reaction.
Speaker 3 00:16:19 I love that as well and sorry, Jenna. Um, I’m loving what I’m hearing, so I’m super engaged with it, but I th there’s kind of that, uh, um, that elephant in the room as well though, around, and you mentioned it earlier on, which is we don’t have time for that. And this idea around, well, the coaching role is different than the doing role. And sometimes we get, we get drawn into the doing role because we feel like we don’t have time for it. Um, what do you feel is like the right approach to, um, to, to that whole push around? Well, you know, we’re in manufacturing and we’ve got to get stuff done, and there’s always a sense of urgency because the product’s got to get off the line. How do you deal with that? Uh, question around time.
Speaker 2 00:17:06 Yeah. And, um, my, what I found is that, yes, there are some, a lot of truth to how much work we have to do. Um, there are also some assumptions being made and you know, so when I help managers say, well, let’s take a look at how you are spending your time. And we figure out how much of that is in reaction space. And then we figure out how much of that is handling stuff that really their team could handle. If we allow them to. And all of a sudden we we’ve identified where we can actually create space. Um, and so sometimes there is a little bit of that, you know, at the beginning, I do have to commit to, to choosing this. And I may say, you know what, I’m not going to move into coach mode every single time I can. Right. We may say we may focus and say, okay, so we’ve taken a look at how you’re spending your time.
Speaker 2 00:17:59 We’ve taken a look at where you’re jumping in and you don’t need to jump in. Let’s look at the ones that are happening the most frequently. Let’s talk to your team about those. Let’s make sure that they, you know, we kind of talk them through what your decision making processes, how you think about those types of problems. Let’s give them, tell them that what we want them to do next is when they come to you, what we want them to say, what they think. And so in those scenarios, you’re going to say, what do you think you’re going to try that out for a week or two, and then guess what? Everybody’s going to realize that they can do it. And so now, now you’ve kind of taken that now we’ve got a little bit more space and so we can do it incrementally. You don’t have to move from, I give all the answers to, I give none of the answers, right?
Speaker 3 00:18:42 It’s around prioritizing, choosing your battles, if you like, and then choosing to invest your time in those, um, rather than trying to do it on everything, you know, drawing a line in the sense that from now on, I’m going to be a coach and I’m going to coach everything, right. You’re really picking the priorities and then investing.
Speaker 2 00:18:59 Yeah. That’s, that’s, you know, what I typically will do with leaders is in recommend with leaders.
Speaker 1 00:19:05 I’m curious about, I want to just go back briefly to the story about Brian, because he said he came away with three takeaways, things that he learned about that process. I’m curious when he made that shift in his leadership, did he actually gain more time to get the stuff done that he needed to do because he wasn’t putting out everybody’s fire
Speaker 2 00:19:27 Did. Yeah. And what was interesting is, so it really grew in two places. One is the team was able to make some of those decisions about, you know, what, I’ll just call the customer or I’ll just call the supplier. And so they didn’t even go to him at all. Cause they, I mean, they knew what to do. They knew how to handle that. The other thing that happened is that now they had, um, you know, this queue of problems that was developing where, you know, like I said, maybe it was items getting damaged in shipping or we’re having this color management problem, whatever it was. So they had this queue and for the first time they were really able to get to it because when Brian was coming to me, he said, I’ve got this queue and I don’t have time to work on it.
Speaker 2 00:20:05 Well, now what was, what happened is his team would, would team up in pairs or, or maybe groups of three and they would choose one problem from the queue. And they would start working on that problem. And Brian, they would, you know, Brian would kind of come in to help coach where they didn’t have the skills yet, um, or teach where they didn’t have the skills yet. But now you had two or three problems getting worked at a time by the team where, before those were just sitting in queue and Brian’s like, yeah, one day I’ll get to them.
Speaker 1 00:20:33 Hmm. So does this actually come down to the leader, giving permission to the team to lead in their own way? I’m, I’m curious about what the, the thought is for that person on the frontline or wherever when the leader changes their tack. Right. So how do they kind of take that?
Speaker 2 00:20:57 Yeah, so I encouraged transparency and vulnerability. And so if I’m a, you know, have maybe been a little bit more on the telling side and taking, you know, doing the Brian, let me take all the things or, you know, my style, command and control. I’m going to get, tell you what to do and you follow my instructions. Right. So if I’ve had some bad, then I want to make sure that, um, that I do share, you know, what I want wanna, I want to own up to where I’ve been, um, you know, managing or leading in a way that, that wasn’t particularly effective. And I’m going to share that I’m going to try and get better at this. And so, you know, I appreciate, if you let me know, if you see that, you know, things are getting better, but also let me know if you think that they’re not, um, particularly if there’s one thing in particular that you’re trying to do, like the coaching, like I’m this, I’m going to try to not jump in and give the answers and I’m going to try and ask you for what you think more.
Speaker 2 00:21:50 And so I think it’s, it’s perfectly appropriate to tell them that you’re working on it. Um, to say, I’m trying to be a better listener. I’m trying to, um, you know, whatever it might be that you’re working on, let them know that they’re, I mean, it’s a human experience, right? I mean, business is personal and leadership is a relationship. We’re all people. And so it’s a human experience and they’re going to understand, and they’ll appreciate one that you owned up to, maybe some of the mistakes you’ve made and two that you’re bringing them in to this process that you’re going through, that they get to see that it’s okay to, um, you know, take this imperfect action and to try to improve something. You don’t have to just put on a face.
Speaker 1 00:22:34 I heard, um, an interesting comment. I think it was from John C. Maxwell who said, you know, you have to let people know your vulnerabilities. And then there are leaders are like, I’m never telling anybody about my own vulnerabilities, then they’ll think I can’t do the job. But what he said was they already know your vulnerabilities and your weaknesses. So what you need to do is tell them that, you know, you have those weaknesses and that you’re working on them.
Speaker 2 00:23:01 Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Like they don’t know that, you know, you’re grumpy and you know, you smart off or you’re sarcastic or whatever. Like they know that.
Speaker 1 00:23:13 Yeah. Yeah. So, um, anyway, you’ve been in business now for a couple of years and you’re this recovering command and control leader. Share some stories with me over the last couple of years with us over the last couple of years where you’ve really had the light turned on about this change in leadership approach for you.
Speaker 2 00:23:37 Yeah. So, um, one of the things I would say, like probably the biggest learning for me and over the last two years is that I can do hard things and, you know, by the way, you can too, right. We all can do these hard things. Um, because, you know, as when I work with leaders, a lot of what we’re talking about is, you know, this idea of taking imperfect action or failing forward, right. Where, you know, we, we, we typically in the past have been really focused on results, results, results, results, results only. And now we’re looking at more of this process plus results, which is let’s look at the processes and how do we improve the processes that deliver results all within this umbrella of people. Um, because while work is made up a process, organizations are made up of people. So we have these, both of these things and the reality is we’re not going to get it right on the first time or usually the second or the third or the fourth.
Speaker 2 00:24:35 We have to have that practice that Kevin talked about, you know, it’s this practice. Um, and so it’s this iterative iterative situation where you’re taking a little step, me and you’re falling down, you’re doing some learning, you’re taking some more steps. And, um, going through that iteration of practice. And I was so comfortable with that in the leadership space. I mean, I’d, you know, committed my role for operations management, my whole career. I was, um, really comfortable being on kind of the cutting edge and trying the crazy things that no one else would try, you know, like, Hey, we’re, you know, I have to do annual reviews, guess what? We’re going to write peer reviews instead, you know, like just doing all kinds of crazy stuff, but, um, and, and being totally okay. Yeah. That could fail. We’re going to try it. No big deal.
Speaker 2 00:25:19 Well, when I moved to a new space of entrepreneurship, it’s like I had to go back to some baby steps there, you know, this, this fear of failing or failing in public, or putting myself out there, wait, you want me to call somebody and ask them to give me money? What, you know, some of that stuff, I was in this place where I was feeling it, um, on this level. And I think it gave me a lot, a lot of empathy to what our team team members go through when we’re asking them to change and to improve. And so, so I think I was, it was good for me to really feel that and to start to re practice that in a space where I didn’t have the experience and the confidence, um, because it’s still this practice for me is, okay, I’m going to take this imperfect action. And I’m scared to hit that send button, but I’m doing it anyways. Um, and you know, kind of coming back to celebrate the process, not just the outcome, right.
Speaker 3 00:26:18 I love the urine, that learning mode as well, Jamie and, uh, and the you’re open to the fact that it’s, it is a different role and it is a different experience and that you’re, you’re learning all the way. And, uh, it makes me laugh when you say, um, putting yourself out there and, and that, that’s kind of scary. And it reminds me of what you were just saying about, uh, other people know already. So I’m talking to CEO’s and I’m trying to them to get on video. And they’re like, Oh, I don’t like the way I look on video. I don’t like the way I sound on video. And I’m like, that’s the way you sound. Anyway, everybody else knows that you look like this sound like that, right. For you, that thinks there’s something different. And, uh, but you’re going through that learning process again. And it’s great that you you’re open to that continual growth because that’s exactly right. That’s what we want for the frontline employees. So we want them to be able to lean forward and continue this growth process all the way through. So I just want to recognize you for putting yourself out there and continuing to grow
Speaker 2 00:27:20 Well, thank you. And I will say this is that I also hire a coach, right? Like I work with a coach. Um, I work with somebody who helps me, you know, so when I do get stuck in my head, or, you know, when I get into an action, you know, she might kind of come in and, um, or I’ll bring it to her. Like maybe I got through it, but man, this is what I’m feeling and, you know, whatever it is like, I, you know, I work with a coach too, right. It’s something that I think, um, our frontline team members need that. And that’s where we need our operations managers to develop these skills and be able to play that role for our frontline team members. And then our operations manager, stadiums people to come in and help teach him and coach them and executives as well. Right. So, um, so I, I appreciate and here, and I appreciate that acknowledgement and also recognize that, you know, I get hopeless.
Speaker 3 00:28:11 Yeah. And I think that a coach who doesn’t have a coach, he’s a fraud really, right. The people that you need coaching, you need some help on the things that you’re not great at, but if you’re not willing to get that help yourself, then that’s kind of fraudulent to me. So, um, I’m, I’m very much the same. I have coaches in many different areas of my life that are helping me push through those barriers.
Speaker 2 00:28:32 Yeah, absolutely. So Jamie, I’d like to get a couple of takeaways, key takeaways from you, um, from your whole leadership journey, a couple of key takeaways that people can can have for this conversation from you. Yeah. So, I mean, I think, um, a couple of key key takeaways. One is that, um, it’s okay. If it doesn’t all work out the way you think it’s going to, in fact, that’s good because then it means you’re stretching yourself, right. You’re moving into the unknown. You are trying things that are outside of what you’ve already kind of developed your expertise in. So we want to embrace this idea of failing forward and learning through our experiences. Um, so I think that’s a, a big takeaway when I work with leaders. And then, um, I love this actually idea. Just the takeaway from today where you shared, you know, what they already know. Um, I hadn’t heard that before. And, um, I think that’s so important because I talk about transparency and vulnerability. And so it, you know, Janet, you had Kevin just shared those examples there, of, of you’re right. They, they do already know. Um, so let’s just
Speaker 1 00:29:42 Go ahead and, and vocalize it and let them know that we know too. Yeah. Jamie, it’s such a pleasure to talk to you. You have a fantastic podcast on your own it’s called process plus results podcast. Am I correct on that? So the title of the podcast is lean leadership for ops managers. Um, you can find it at my website, my company website, which is process plus results.com. Right. And it is, it’s a really good podcast cause you give some fabulous tips. So people should definitely check it out. And Jamie, I sincerely hope that you’ll join us again on the podcast we loved having you. Oh, thank you. I appreciate you having me on and really loved this conversation. Great. Thanks so much, Kevin. Good to see you again. Very welcome. So that is our show for today. Jamie V. Parker is an independent consultant.
Speaker 1 00:30:30 She is at process plus results and Kevin Snook is a leadership, uh, manufacturing leadership advisor. He’s also the author of make it right. Five steps to align your manufacturing business from the frontline to the bottom line. So be sure to check out, uh, Jamie’s podcast as well. And thanks so much for joining us for make it right. You can check us out on Twitter and LinkedIn, and you can also share this podcast with your friends and colleagues, if you want. We’re on iTunes, Google play Stitcher, Spotify and YouTube until next time. Thanks very much for listening to the Make It Right podcast.
Speaker 0 00:31:02 .