Episode 107: Transcript
Behavioral Science based Sales Generation
Sean refers to this image during the discussion of the sales process.
— Speaker 0 00:04 Make it right. The manufacturing podcast welcome to the Speaker 1 00:10 Right podcast. This is a podcast where we share conversations designed to help manufacturing leaders make the most of their businesses from improving manufacturing processes and factory culture to driving sales and accelerating business growth. Ultimately though all business hinges on one end goal and that’s to make the sale, collect the money and repeat this week, I’ll make a right. We’re going to show you how you can amplify that by using the science of behavioral change. I’m Janet Eastman. My guest is Sean M. Doyle. He’s seen this approach gets staggering results, and he’s gonna share it with us. So Sean is the principal at Fitz Martin, a consultancy firm that’s focused on helping business leaders, transform their sales and marketing. He’s also an author and a speaker, and it’s great to have you on the show, Sean. Welcome. Speaker 2 01:01 Oh, you’re so kind. Yeah. I’m looking forward to you sharing the secret sauce with us. Oh, absolutely. That’s a privileged to be on, make it right. I’ve been looking forward to this. Thank you, Janet. Speaker 1 01:11 Oh, you’re very welcome. So, Sean, uh, give us a little bit of background about your sales and marketing, uh, background, because I know you’ve been in business for what 25 or 30 years, but tell me a little bit about you and what Fitz Martin is all about. Speaker 2 01:24 Sure. Well, I was born in 1964. Oh no, you don’t want to go that far back. Um, we, uh, Fitz Martin works with, uh, the executive teams of typically rapidly growing business to business, lower middle middle market companies and always B to B. And our specialist specialization is in identifying the barriers to sales and marketing success. So we have advisors, they map plans, identify the barriers and they work with these teams to help execute against those plans. Um, I’m fond of saying it unless something gets sold, nothing else really matters. So we, uh, we love cells. Uh, we’re very different from a typical ad agency in that way. Speaker 1 02:07 So sales and marketing are generally spoken of as if they’re one thing, but very often they aren’t actually really even operating together. So what generally is going wrong in that sales and marketing package? Speaker 2 02:19 Oh, there’s, there’s a great debate about that right now. There’s this new concept called revenue operations that says sales and marketing should be treated as one entity. Uh, there’s uh, traditional models of SVP of sales and a chief marketing officer. And I think there’s opportunity to be found in both of them. Uh, but to directly answer your question as we’ve worked with companies like us steel or U S pipe or, um, specialty manufacturers like IBM Mel or occupational health dynamics, we’ve, we’ve seen these really typical patterns to merge. And one of the biggest barrier is one of the greatest problems is marketing is not up to speed with sale. Awesome. And I, and I don’t say that because I belittle marketing I’m on big believer in marketing. And in fact, I think most executives in manufacturing can leverage marketing in a way they’ve never before believed it was possible. Speaker 2 03:16 And by doing that, it’s really one of the greatest strategic tools and executive can have to find new revenue, especially when you’re in a unusual or down economy. Marketing is a great tool to lever, but you’ve got to do it right. And I’m not talking about that silly art direction, kind of marketing, cute stuff, talking about real business, real serious business. And, um, yeah, that’s, that’s where I would point to. Okay. So you’re successfully using behavioral science to drive sales for your clients. So I don’t think anybody I’ve ever spoken to about sales and marketing has ever said that they use behavioral science to drive sales for their clients. So where did this approach come from? How does it work? Oh, great question. So in 2002, uh, I hit the significant health care issue. And any of you listening that know what it’s like to have a healthcare crisis in your life, you know, at that time you rethink everything personally business. Speaker 2 04:14 And in my process of rethinking and grounding, uh, I realized that I had a very successful 20 year old marketing business, but I didn’t know exactly why when things worked, they worked and when things didn’t work, I didn’t know how to identify them — — . So that was a pretty big admission. If you want to call it that executives want ROI, they want it measurable and good process driven. Executives want to understand things in a process. So we’ve all had the consumer decision journey. You know, this idea that there’s steps that people go from unaware of something existing to being a purchaser of something. And then an advocate of that something. And what, I didn’t know what I didn’t see until I read this book around the science of behavioral change. It’s the trans theoretical theorem of behavioral change by Norcross DiClemente. And it was a very scientific book. Speaker 2 05:15 It’s super wonky. I get on eBay or Amazon and buy a used book. It’s it’s a good, it’s a good read actually. And it will apply to everything from internal communications culture to external sales and marketing where we’re focused. Um, but this, this aha moment occurred as I was reading this book, the science, what they said is yes, there’s a process people go through, but there are steps that occur as you go through this consumer decision journey. Of course they were calling it behavioral change and these processes are different and they’re effective only at unique stages. For example, consciousness raising. Most of us think about marketing and sales in the context of a consciousness raising point of view, advertising trade shows, et cetera, but that only helps people very early in the stages of behavioral change, where the, the process of buying something, what works later, there’s more emotional and rational reevaluation. Speaker 2 06:16 And even more late stage before you want to close a deal there’s processes that are behaviorally science identifies countering environmental controls, rewards, helping relationships. So the aha moment for me, Janet was when I saw the stuff I was doing that ad agencies are doing early stage, don’t worry late stage. And I think that’s why so many executives quote, try marketing or try advertising and they get frustrated. They say it doesn’t work. It’s not that it didn’t work. It just only worked in the earliest stages of buying the latest later stages of buying that’s where the magic happens, right? That’s where stuff gets sold. And usually sales takes over. At that point, they don’t respect marketing cause marketing doesn’t know how to contribute. They haven’t earned the respect and they don’t know what to do late stage. So the aha moment for us as we applied, the science was late stage sales has different processes. Speaker 2 07:15 Therefore as communications experts, we should be applying the science that works at those late stages. Okay. That was a mouthful. Wasn’t it? You know, you got the wheels spinning in my head and I know that you do have a graphic that we’ve put up on the podcast page for episode one Oh seven. So if people want to have a look at that, but do you want to explain the process as we go through that, that chart that you have? Well, I’d be glad to, I think I would also offer your listeners to come to a website. It’s called Sean M doyle.com. Sean S E a N M Doyle, D O Y L e.com. And there’s a video that’s about 15 minutes and it really dives into it. But what I’ll share today, I think it’s just a focus on that late stage, um, idea that late stage thinking, cause that is where the value can be found the fastest. Speaker 2 08:10 So let’s talk about that a little bit and I’ll share a story. Uh, at the time, uh, when I was discovering this science, my largest client, probably 60% of my revenue came to me and said, large company said, we’ve got these pools, these prospects, and we haven’t been able to close them. We’ve got in fact 1500 prospects that we have given that list to an agency and they couldn’t move the needle. They failed. We gave it to a second agency. They couldn’t move the needle. They failed. Do you want to try it? And of course, I’m going, Oh my, this is a gorilla client. If I lose them, like this is the end. So I was terrified, but we thought let’s try this science thing. So we mapped out and we do this thing called a sales barrier audit. We mapped out in this audit where their sales team was working, what they were doing, what marketing was providing. Speaker 2 09:05 And we had this great aha moment of wow, all the money. All the time was being spent early stage sales, marketing, wasn’t supporting sales late stage at all. And they were taking a relationship like most manufacturers have whe — — re the buyers and the sellers already know each other. So more awareness doesn’t solve anything. And when we changed the attack, when we moved to these later stage models, where we started sharing emotional ideas of why you should buy this product and rational ideas, and typically manufacturers love the rational and don’t need help there. But the emotional, like there’s, there really are real reasons. If you’re buying a chunk of metal, that’s been formed in a certain way, there can still be emotional reasons. Even, even if you’re just looking for a commodity price, there’s still emotional reasons that you can drive people. So that’s a lever that’s not often pooled. Speaker 2 10:00 But so anyway, we, we, we pulled these levers. These later stage levers and 91% of the people took phone calls these prospects. Now that wasn’t totally surprising because the buyers and sellers knew each other, but 60%, well, 58% accepted a meeting. Well, you wouldn’t accept a meeting with a sales person. Nobody has that kind of time to waste. So that was remarkable. 40% of that group requested proposals and an a period of six weeks closed $380 million of business. That was wow. You know, that was, that was just a real aha moment. So we then started applying that science, um, and we started looking at the ROI and we’ve got this incredible measurable ROI now because with sales working with sales, and one of the keys to that process was we talked to sales, we interacted with them. We asked them what their needs. We asked them what their problems were and we coordinated our attack to that market segment. Speaker 2 11:02 Well, so the measurable leads, you know, you can look at a relatively insignificant investments on ROI and we can measure engagement. We can measure the cost per leads. We can measure the average relationship size. That’s another aha moment we’ve learned over the years because when you apply this science, your, uh, your vertical targeting, your work that you’re doing, not only will you close more deals, but the value of those deals typically is higher. We, we see about a 2.4, a 2.5% lift in response rate over traditional marketing. And we’re seeing almost 80% of unique business relationships, um, improving over 100 targets generated from this. So it’s just a remarkable lift, um, in, in the value of the sale. So, um, obviously drinking the Koolaid, right? So I’m excited about this and how it works. And that was 13 years ago, Janet. So we’ve been doing this process working this way for 13 years, we’ve had some significant relationships. Speaker 2 12:11 Um, and you know, one of the majors in marketing and here’s a secret for, for the listeners. If you ever agency relationship, that’s probably more than about three to five years. It’s either highly unusual and remarkable, or you just need to fire them because you’re too comfortable and you’re, and you really have too low of expectations. So now all my clients that are listening, don’t fire me after three years. I think the difference is that we are measurable. We are responsive and we’re, I’m really not an ad agency. You know, we’re working with sales intimately. So we have people that sit in the middle between marketing and sales. Oh, Janet, I’m just getting excited. I hope you’re. I hope your audience. I hope that executives listening can get this excited about marketing because marketing can work. It can add value. It can add short term value. Speaker 2 13:01 So, you know, private equity, you buy a company and you need short term results. This works degenerate that, uh, longterm, this adds value. If you’re private, a lot of our clients are privately held businesses or closely held. And the longterm value creation is important to them. And this works there too. So sales can do it. Yeah. It’s legit, you know? Yeah. So, so what’s it, what’s the marrying aspect of sales and marketing then like, where’s that magic happening with marketing and sales in those later stages when you’re getting to that conversion marketing doing well right now, my guess is most of your listeners, aren’t, they’re not doing, uh, the, this late stage, the aha moment for the, for the, the conversation. It’s so simple. Janet it’s create a common language. I understand a, what it means at different steps. For example, if we have a, if we’re going to teach somebody how to do this, we’re going to tell you that a late stage prospect could be at something, a phase called preparation. — — Speaker 2 14:09 And the cognitive science teaches us that when you’re in preparation, there’s only three things that matter to you. And that’s being excited about it, seeing how it applies to you, uh, looking at value from a rational way and making some form of small, private commitment, then later a public commitment. So every buyer, even in a procurement model, every buyer has to make a one-on-one decision at some point. So let’s equip sales, not to close the deal, but to make a private commitment. So what’s a private commitment. Well, it probably gets spoken about typically as sales engineering or a technical assessment or a diagnostic well, marketing needs understand that a private commitment is important. They should be creating tools for sales to use. There should be creating a, I worked with a client who created an online portal once. So when they had somebody in this commitment phase, it gave them a place to work. Speaker 2 15:07 Well, guess what? That also did taught them to come to the website. It taught them to come and see this information that they were sharing. It, it was sort of like a small step toward an exchange relationship. Well, marketing has to do all that. So if you understand, for example, what I just shared preparation has certain needs. Well then action is the next step, right before an exchange relationship. Well, there’s a different sets of there. There are different sets of needs, uh, environmental controls or positive behaviors. And you can get it. You’ll hear a little bit of this on the, on the, uh, the introduction to this at that Sean M dwell a website’s free video. Um, I would also encourage, as you want to look at this late stage opportunity that lever, you can pull to close more deals without really spending a lot more money. Speaker 2 15:55 Uh, and don’t have to hire anybody. You can try this yourself, um, go to, um, fits martin.com. And that’s my primary job. Uh, F I T Z M a R T I n.com. And you’ll see all over the place, little buttons that offer a sales barrier analysis or audit, and you can self administer that it’s just a simple download, and it will teach you some of the ways that you can close more late stage deals. So that’s where I would say, if I’m an executive listening to this, I want more revenue more quickly. I’m focusing on late stage techniques. I don’t need more leads. I don’t need more white. You might, but I don’t, you know, that’s the longest you’ve got to score a touchdown and you’re on your own 10 yard line. That’s a long way to go to focus on the red zone, right? Speaker 2 16:45 Can get down next to the, um, here I am talking to a Canadian about American football. That’s terrible. So, um, but you know, I’m saying that the deals that are closer, um, and I would say also in that common language, um, if marketing and sales has a common language, an executive will enjoy marketing can hang on to prospects longer and focus their sales teams on closing deals. Instead of having their sales team, trying to nurture deals from zero all the way through sell, sell should sell. Right? Yeah. So, uh, so marketing has these prospects, how are they keeping them warm over the longterm until they see that moment where they go, Oh, this person’s moving on to that commitment stage. Let’s get into the portal or whatever. I mean, there must be signs that you can read that would tell you, Oh yeah, we’re close. Speaker 2 17:41 Yeah. It’s really I, what a great question. Um, the science taught me that you can see people who are progressing. Think about somebody. Remember this is behavioral science, right? It’s core to our, I’m not just some sales, schmuck or marketing schmuck. Well, I might be a marketing schmuck, but I’m not just making this stuff up. Right. This is validated science. You can, you can talk to one of my consultants, wife is a sociologist and a counselor. And when she heard about this, she said, Oh, that’s the trans theoretical theorem of behavioral change. It’s like, yeah, you did. Yeah, you got it. So they’re teaching this in college today. It’s not new science is valid. So one thing, if you think about a behavioral change that, that you try to make, I’m trying to lose about 15 pounds right now. And if you look at it, I’ll, I’ve been trying to lose 15 pounds for a long time, right? Speaker 2 18:30 Maybe a couple of years. Well, what happens is you’ll, you’ll move forward toward making that commitment. And then a good p — — arty will come up or the holidays will come up and I’ll, I’ll kind of ditch that commitment. And I’ll say, I’ll start that later. So you can get right up in sales, you can have a prospect get right to the edge. They may even have a contract in hand, um, and they back off and they go back, you know, and that’s a normal thing. So sales and marketing, again, have to have a common language to know if somebody was at the action stage, they didn’t close and they’ve gone back to what we would call contemplating. So contemplating is when you want to get people emotionally aroused and rationally, re-evaluating all over again. And then, okay. So here’s a, here’s a great little sales secret. Speaker 2 19:19 Um, yeah. You think about awareness in two ways. There’s awareness that something exists. Right? So I can’t buy it. If I don’t know something exists, I can’t buy your company’s goods, uh, in the manufacturing space. If I don’t know you exist, right? So that’s one type of awareness that other type of awareness that’s really, really powerful is I don’t understand why it matters to me. I can have great understanding that you exist. Okay. You could be totally irrelevant. Right? So maybe you’re not irrelevant, but you’ve never taken the effort, made the effort to explain how you matter. How are you relevant? Well, the ways to do that are explain emotional arousal. So it might be for example, uh, well like, okay, here’s a classic, uh, I’m in B2B, you can’t get through, it’s a commodity purchase. There’s procurement. Well, what if you show the procurement officer, how the last procurement officer, you bought your services or products and they they’re career advanced. Speaker 2 20:24 What if you show that, how that, that other procurement advance officer got a raise or, I mean, there’s, there’s still ways there’s still human, right? And so rationally the procurement officer’s designed to beat you down and to counter into all this stuff. But emotionally they’re still humans. That’s still works and it may not be on it piece of paper. It’s not in a spreadsheet, but a powerful sales tool. So when you get that, your, your question was, what do you do when these deals retreat be comfortable? Don’t panic. This is why you need to have a database probably of 8,000 people. That’s the number we usually use as a rule of thumb of prospects in a narrowly positioned space. So if you have 8,000 people, there’s going to be enough that are closer to deals that will close, but you’ll be in great shape. If you don’t have 8,000 in your database, then you need to build your database. Speaker 2 21:13 That’s an, that’s another basic, that’s a sales and marketing joint effort. So, ah, we’re really getting down to the weeds. Great questions though, Janet. I love it. Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, when you’re looking at the kind of things that people should be thinking about, like to get sales happening, get a handle on what this science means, understand your late stage sales problem, but what’s that third tip, like there’s something else that’s probably missing in the package here in between the sales and marketing story. Yeah. Um, if I was to bring a third tip to the table, I think it would be, you might have the wrong person in marketing if you haven’t experienced success. So what do I mean by that? I just fired somebody I never even met. Right. Um, you may have a great person to marketing, but if you’re not experiencing success, then maybe you need to redefine your understanding as an executive of what it means to lead marketing. Speaker 2 22:14 Um, in fact, if you, uh, I’ve created a job description that it’s really categories, cause I don’t know enough about your industry or your entity or your, your goals to write a job description, but it’s a structure of expectations that an executive can have from a marketing leader or from a marketing department, email me, Sean at Fitz, martin.com, email me, and I will get that to you. It’s it’s, it’s just something I’ve done over the years. I’m more than glad to share it because what it does is it helps an executive reframe what their expectations should be. And I’ll even include this. Um, I had the privilege to be published last year by rock bench publishing out of Nashville. Uh, and in the book shift, there is a paragraph at chapter, excuse me, on how to hire questions to ask when you’re hiring a marketing person. Speaker 2 23:08 So here, I’m going to give you my favorite questi — — on of all of them free. You don’t have to buy the book. Um, that’d be great if you do though. Um, the, uh, the question is this, ask the person you’re interviewing for the marketing role ask, what would you do if everything was taken care of on the front side of the consumer decision journey, what are the techniques? What are the processes? What are the models what’s, how would you approach closing late stage deals? If you ask a marketer, what, and do you close the late stage deals? And they can’t answer that means you’ve probably got a craft person or somebody who doesn’t understand sales. And if marketing doesn’t understand sales, that’s not the right person to hire. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s a great question. I mean, I don’t even care what their answers are as long as they have thought about it. Speaker 2 24:10 You know, if somebody, a marketer should have a considered model and that’s what this cognitive marketing framework is, and yeah, again, come to the podcast and down to the page and download the framework. So you’ll have your cheat sheet for that question. Hmm. So you gave us one really good story based on this behavioral science. Um, but the success that you had with it, is there, are there any other stories that you can share that where you’ve seen this really all come together for a company? Oh yeah. Um, w we’ve seen it work in different spaces. I mentioned occupational health dynamics earlier. Um, we saw a lifetime value of $595,000 generated with an old dead leads, uh, email list. Really. They were going to, yeah, they were going to swipe it a race it and take it out of their system because they were trying to save some money and we generated that much LTV. Speaker 2 25:07 It was amazing. Um, we did a program and that was on a I’ll even share that was on a marketing spend. Well, under our relationship, but a specific project spend of like $60,000. I mean, it wasn’t super complicated, a very craft driven model. It was just a smart way of applying the, the tools we had. Um, you know, we’ve seen, uh, $803,000 of lifetime value marketing attributed in a company that had a very strong sales structure, um, and no marketing, but just bringing in marketing in, uh, this is, uh, 2018, uh, experimented, uh, just that year sold 36 items. So these are really high cost, very expensive. How they considered things at this company is selling. Um, they’d prefer I not use their name if I’m going to throw around the revenues. Um, and, uh, yeah, there’s just been some great, um, great stories across different types of manufacturing, um, you know, occupational health, uh, oil and gas. Speaker 2 26:14 Uh, we’ve got a client who’s done very well. Um, in, even in down markets, they can typically outperform by 10 to 15%, uh, their competitors, um, and you know, the smart products, great manufacturing, all of that. Stuff’s gotta be there, good sales, you know, very good sales teams, you know, all of that has to be in place. Um, but then this is like that, that lever, that just is the aha moment that gives you that return, that, you know, you should be learning that you should be, you know, I mean, Janet was the last time you met an executive that didn’t somewhere deep down go, I should be doing better than this. I should be performing better than that. Yeah. Don’t don’t all executives want one. I think we all think that, right. Like, yeah, that’s true. Where’s that barrier? Like, why am I not getting there? Speaker 2 27:06 What’s in my way, you know, so yeah, I’m reminded of my college freshmen lit professor Sarah Palmer and, um, Sarah, you know, the trouble with marketing guys are usually smart enough. They can talk a little bit and make you sound like, you know what you’re doing. So I was probably doing that in English with my papers. And she called me to our office. She was this little tiny woman and she called me to her office and she sat behind this huge wooden desk from the fifties. And I was sitting in this chair that was a little too short and there was this placard in front of the desk. And all it said was, you can do better. Speaker 2 27:46 Yes. Like, yes, ma’am. I know I can. Yes, ma’am. And I cannot, I think executives can do better. And that’s what I’m passionate about. That’s why I’m sharing this stuff. That’s why I’m doing this podcast for your listeners. We can do better. And there’s, uh, there’s, it’s not, it’s not magic. It’s science. It’s great. Yeah — — . Well, and now in particular is a really important time to be making sure that your sales and marketing is getting it right. Um, so, you know, just as a, as a quick final question for you, how do you figure out where to really focus your time and your money, if you’re, I mean, we’re in this period where, you know, things are a little bit topsy turvy, what are the three tips for, for manufacturing executives to really like, take a good look at their business? What would you suggest that they really focus on right now? Speaker 2 28:39 Perfect. Um, you know, I listened to this podcast and episode, I think it was 100 ish maybe isolation communication that Kevin shook did with you. Yeah. I thought that was a really great episode. This idea of why we’re in isolation while we’re separated and really that this applies to times of crisis when we can’t physically get together. But it also applies to times when you can’t afford the ticket to go overseas, or you don’t want to spend Willy nilly money trying to pursue a prospect that’s so far away from you. Well, I there’s financial impacts of all sorts, right? So I think the, the idea of isolation communication was really handled well by one of my clients in the oil and gas industry. So not only have they had the healthcare crisis that the, the nation, the world’s going through the pandemic, but there’s also been, Oh, an oil and gas crisis right there. Speaker 2 29:37 Their product actually went to minus dollars, right. They paying people $37 barrel of oil to take it so odd times, weird days. Well, they decided very strategically to, to do this isolation communication and engage with customers by not necessarily sharing their intellectual property, but by doing these deep insights that only people who are really down in the industry would get, I mean, like, what do you do when, um, Oh, ad so oil and gas industry specific, but you know, this is really nuanced problems that you would only know if you were drilling holes in the ground and pulling fluids out. Um, so they’ve created this series of two minute drives. I called two minute drives. They sell, uh, drives for oil and gas, um, systems, uh, D drive is the thing that controls the pump or any kind of rotating equipment. So they created this series and I’ve been emailing them out. Speaker 2 30:36 They’ve been putting them on LinkedIn. They’ve been sharing with everybody and it’s been remarkable. Their users on their website are up 44% of those users. 81% of them are new visitors. So here we are on this down crisis economy and people are new people are coming to the table. So it really has been an amazing idea. So yeah. So one pay attention to this advice in relation to communication idea, whether it’s in a time of pandemic or a recession or not, I mean, this, this works right. Be really, really narrow. Uh, two, I would obviously say, let’s go back to hire the right person. I find out if the marketing person that you’re frustrated with or the agency that you’re, find out, if they really do know how to produce revenue, by asking them that question about explain to me what the needs of the buyer are through the entire sales cycle. Speaker 2 31:32 And actually, if they’re really good, they’ll even answer a question about customer success, right? So once you have a customer, everybody knows that’s the cheapest person you can sell to. So once you have a customer, what’s your customer success, philosophy and plan a good marketer, should it be able to answer, uh, with, uh, intelligent process driven view? And if they can’t, you’ve got to change agencies or change the person on your team, or put them in a role that’s more appropriate. So, and, you know, I’ll give you that J D so maybe that’ll elevate. And then I would say, uh, the last tip would be, we find most success with this one simple thing. People spend way too much money on early stage processes, creating awareness, going to trade shows. Um, and instead of that, reduce your expenses on the front end and move them later stage. Speaker 2 32:28 That’s probably, I have these sales barrier analysis, I’d say 80% of them. We come back and say, spend less earlier, spend more later. You know, so not, uh, we often don’t even have to ask clients to spend more than they’re already spending. We just reallocate that spend. So use that sales barrier analysis, give it a try. I mean, if my odds are that you can move your spend to support sales m — — ore, and I don’t mean give it to sales. I mean, support sales marketing should be supporting that late stage sales. Janet. I hope that this few minutes, so that it impacts some CEOs, some manufacturing industry in a great way, and that I made make it right. A tiny, tiny, teeny bit better. Y’all have such great guests, you know, Sean. Speaker 1 33:19 Yeah. Like you’ve got the wheels turning in my head. It’s it’s um, it’s crazy. I’m thinking about, you know, I’ve talked to a lot of marketers over the last couple of months, um, and you know, some of the ideas are similar and some of them are quite different, but I think that, you know, you’re right at the end. The only thing that really matters is whether or not you make the sale and all the awareness in the world, if they’re not going to put the money down on the table, um, it just really doesn’t matter. So you’ve got to get the sales and you’ve got close them. So I think this is great. And, you know, I watched your video on your website and, uh, you have, I have to compliment you. You have a fantastic delivery. You’re super easy to understand and watch, and I think people will get a ton out of that video. Speaker 1 34:07 Oh, you’re so kind. Thank you, Janet. No, it’s, it’s really very good. So Sean, thank you so much for sharing your experience and your ideas with us today. I’ll make it right. I really appreciate it. Oh, it’s been great. Thank you, Sean. M. Doyle is the principal at Fitz Martin. You can check them email@example.com. He’s also the author of shift 19 practical business driven ideas for an executive in charge of marketing, but not trained for the task. And you can find that one on Amazon. And some of the resources that Sean mentioned can be found at dot com or Sean M doyle.com. You can always go to our webpage for this episode one Oh seven and look at a couple of those charts that we were talking about as well. That’s our show this week, please check out our Twitter and LinkedIn feeds that are on our podcast page and subscribe and share the podcast with your friends and colleagues through iTunes, Google play, Stitcher, Spotify, and YouTube. And remember that make it right. Is brought to you by Kevin’s new keys, a leadership advisor and author of the bestselling book, make it right. Five steps to align your manufacturing business from the front line to the bottom line. I’m Janet Eastman. I hope you have a great week until next time. Thanks for listening to Make It Right.